To Whom It May Concern:

Are these batteries available for automobiles?
If so, what does one cost?
Where can they be purchased?

Frank Apostol

Great idea, hope it will work out.

A few observations

CAUTION: the people likely to replicate this experiment know this:
1. Use personal protection and safety precautions when removing the battery electrolyte.
2. Due to its lead content it is industrial waste (poison) and must not be poured down the drain or into nature.
3. The water used for the alum electrolyte needs to be distilled or fully demineralized water. Tap water ruins the electrolyte (or does it in this case rovide helpful trace elements?)

TRUE - the battery fluid is non corrosive
FALSE - the battery gas is not explosive
REASON: what gasses out of the battery when charging is not the alum but as usual the elements water is made of, oxygen and hydrogen, an explosive combination.

LIKELY UNTRUE: The claim that the silicon battery is less environmentally harmful is only true if it is NOT using lead, so it is a technology different from the topic of this posting.

LIKELY TRUE: when my family car's battery gets old (in 5-7 years), I'll try to rescue it with the described alum electrolyt

Jonathan comments by email:

Sepp,

This is a great discovery, but the idea of "dumping" the contents of the old battery really creeped me out. It is very poisonous, dangerous toxic waste. That liter or so of liquid in a lead-acid battery is sulfuric acid that can burn your skin and blind you if splashed, with a huge amount of dissolved lead, so it must be taken to a hazardous waste company for disposal.

SEPP ET. AL.--- THERE ARE A FEW ADS ON THE WEB FOR RECYCLING BATTERIES COMMERCIALLY-- MAINLY THE RECHARGEABLE PORTABLE TOOL TYPE. SMALL CHARGE FOR THE INFO.
AS I USE 6V. LEAD ACID BATTERIES IN MY BUSINESS, FOR ELECTROPLATING THEY GO BAD RATHER QUICKLY, ABOUT ONCE A YEAR SO I WILL HAVE GOOD REASON TO TAKE A LOOK AT THE SUGGESTIONS HERE AND GIVE YOU A REPORT.
PETE LINDERMAN AND JOHN BEDINI HAVE A METHOD OF EITHER RECHARGING OR REPLACING ELECTROLYTE THAT GIVES THEM UNLIMITED LIFE ON DEEP-CYCLE BATTERIES. THEY SHOWED ME ONE WITH ABOUT 14 YEARS OF SERVICE.REGARDS.....SLIM....

A message to Slim (by email):

SLIM,

ALKALI MIX IS NOT 4 OZ ALUM TO 64 OZ- DISTILLED WATER.

IT IS 4 OZ OF ALUM TO 40 OZ-DISTILLED WATER.

SUGGEST THEY TEST THIS TO SEE IF IT WORKS BETTER.
DO

I used to rebuild automotive batteries for a living. Back then, you just heated up the tar seal and pulled the cells. I can tell you that most battery failures are due to vibration, where the plate or a cell connection breaks.
Life expectancy is mostly affected by high current draws that actually flex the plates. This leads to loosening of the powdered lead on the plates. The powder builds up in the bottom of the battery and eventually reaches the level of the bottom of the plates. At that point, the cell plates short and it's finished.
After plastic batteries were introduced, we couldn't take them apart anymore. So we simply invert the battery and drained the acid into a Poly plastic container. The acid won't eat poly or styrofoam. Use poly gloves, not latex. A lot of the crud comes out with the acid.
Fill the cells with water, agitate and invert into another plastic container. A small trash can works well. Repeat this process until the battery rinses clean.
Wait a few days. The heavy lead products in the acid and the rinse water will settle to the bottom fairly quickly. The container with rinse water you can neutralize with baking soda. An electrolytic process can probably remove the remaining dissolved lead products, but most of it settles. Pour off the clear liquid until the crud is left at the bottom. Leave it in a plastic bucket until it dries. Or, if you do this regularly, save this rinse water for other batteries.
Filter the acid and reuse in the battery. You will need to top off the cells with more. Pour the leftover crud into the drying bucket.
About 50% of batteries will get a useful life again.
As far as replacing the sulfuric acid with Alum, I would be concerned about the aluminum precipitating out of solution and causing shorts. But the biggest problem with lead/acid batteries is the lead, not the acid. I think I'll try it though.

since i didn't want to waste a good battery i started this experiment by using my oldest junk battery.it was literally covered in the weeds, had been open for years and was half empty. i topped it off with distilled water and charged it up. but when i tested it @100amps it showed as three cells dead. i looked inside it and saw that three of the cells were caked up in that white crystaline SULPHATION that shorts out the cells. i knew there was no chance that it would work in that condition so i resolved to clean it up first. i did this by making a gallon of solution of distilled water with as much baking soda as it would dissolve mixed into it. i dumped out the battery and filled it with this solution. WARNING: wear EYE protection and old clothes and shoes. even a small drop of battery acid will eat a hole in them. WARNING: fill slowly because the chemical reaction is violent and will boil over and shoot out if done too fast.
i noticed that when full it continued to bubble about like it does when charging. i let it set overnight until the was no sign of chemical reaction. upon inspection i was pleased to find the battery plates AS CLEAN AS NEW. no sign of the white crystaline SULPHATION.
i dumped this solution out and replaced it with distilled water. i reasoned that this would absorb any residual baking soda. i let it stand overnight. i dumped it out and filled with the ALUM electrolyte solution of 1oz. ALUM per 10oz.'s distilled water. and hooked up the charger. at first it didn't want to take any charge. after i BUMPED it a few times by hitting the quick charge switch on the charger ( i figured it needed to be RE-POLARIZED) it started to take a charge. but only around 5 amps. over a few hours this increased to 15amps. when the charger showed the battery was full i tested it with a 100 AMP LOAD TESTER type meter. it showed as marginal weak. i knew this battery had previously shown three cells dead. it still showed three cells dead but also showed the other three as GOOD.
this indicated to me that the principle was valid so i decided to repeat the experiment with a good battery. i followed the same procedure wityh a DIEHARD group 65 700cca battery that was several years old but still tested as good after one test @100 amps but marginal weak after two tests. after filling with the alkaline i tested it and it immediately checked as OK but on the low side. i charged it 4 hours @15 amps.it tested as high as a new battery. even after four tests @100 amps it still showed as good.
CONCLUSION: usually when somethings too good to be true it ain't. but this is contrary. THIS WORKS!

one more point i left out. don't just blindly believe what someone says about sulphuric acid bieng a pollutant. it's actually used to TREAT WASTEWATER ( google it ) and except for killing a few ameobas or worms when dumped on the earth it simply returns to where it came from. it's SULPHUR. http://www.flowline.com/sucess_stories/S39_SulfuricAcid.lasso

Hi,

I want to try this, but need the formula clarified, as we're putting a powder into a liquid. Is it 10 Fluid OZ (volume) to 40 Fluid OZ (volume) or 10 OZ (weight) to 40 Fluid OZ (volume)?

Ross

With regard to waist Sulphuric Acid, it's not the acid itself, it's the disolved Lead that's the problem.
Has any one tried to do this on Sealed Lead Acid Batteries?. It's probably a bit of a job making sure the electrolyte has been fully replaced.

Hi friends: I am very glad to find so many people working on saving batteries! I have been thinking about using baking sosa to clean the batt. as I have used it with lemon juice to clean silver and other metals with sulfate and it works great. I may use the Alum and water on four deep cycle Trojan batteries I use on my 12 panels solar system and I hope it works. Thanks!
RL

Thanks for the info! Any new news as how the Alum/water conversion is working so far on the batteries that have been converted to alkaline?
Thanks! RL

I tried the Alum on three batteries. I followed these steps:
1) Removed and stored the acid.
2)Cleaned the battery with baking soda/water solution.
3) Washed with water three times.
4) Washed with destiled water.
5) Filled with Alum 10z to 10oz water.
[Sepp comment: From other comments it seems that the ratio should be 10 Alum to 100 oz water, or 1 alum to 10 water]
Charged the battery to 100% but battery lost the charge rapidly as before. It seems that is the battery is good the Alum will work just fine. If the battery is bad, the Alum is not going to help to bring it to life.
One of the batteries I filled back with acid instead and the behavior was the same as with the Alum.
I read that you can open the battery and clean it. I did this carefully but the plates will brake easily. I believe it will be very hard to pull the complete plate group as one without damage to them and for me is not worth the effort!
RL
PS I may try the alum on a better battery. I did tried also on sealed batteries by removing the top plate. I found the have caps just like regular batteries but they are covered with a plastic plate that can be removed with easy. I had the same result as with the deep cycle batteries. Fast charge but rapid lost of voltage.

Well time for an update, it's been a while since I posted the original info as there's been more discovery.

As far as the Guineng batteries go, that company was infringing on the patent of the original company and is out of business. The real company is Greensaver.

You can find their website here.

There are companies in the US selling the Greensaver batteries.

I was able to buy one and have it in a vehicle. The battery seems to have plenty of power.

Regarding the alum conversion:

1. The ratio I have always used is 4oz of dry alum powder to 64 oz of water. I have recently converted a battery with 50g alum to 1liter of water. That is very close to the same ratio.

Some have posted using very high ratio's. They may work, I don't know. The water will only absorb a certian amount of alum and then reach saturation. Saturation is 68 to 79mg/l at 20*C, ph - 9.

It is not necessary to use so much alum. Save your money.

Regarding appropriate candidates for conversion:

If the battery will not take or hold a weak charge, then it may not be able to convert. The conversion process uses the sulfation of the plates as a catalyst in the chemical reation. So it is not necessary to do any washing or rinsing with baking soda solution. The sulfation of the plates begins reversing when you add the alum solution and it will end up being removed over time.

Chosing a very old and malfunctioning battery for the conversion may not yeild a useful battery after conversion.

There is enough evidence from my work and that of others posting that the concept is valid and works well on appropriate candidates for conversion.

What remains is to more scientifically calculate the ratio of alum to water for the project.

I am convinced from what I am seeing that the Greensaver battery can be essentially homemade by the alum conversion technique.

Happy converting!

TS

forgot to post the url for greensaver:

www.greensaver.cn/en

TS

By the way, I have started a new Yahoo Tech Group to discuss battery conversions.

It is called BatteryConversions.

You can access it at Yahoo Groups:

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/batteryconversions/

All the best,

Timothy Shell

I GOOFED GUYS! i just learned i made a TYPO. it's 10 oz. alum per 100 oz. distilled water or 1 oz. per 10 oz. i am SORRY!
also i used USP grade ALUM.

OOOOPS I GOOFED SORRY! i made a typo in my posting. a BIG MISTAKE! i meant 10 oz. alum for 100 oz. distilled water NOT 10 oz. water. BIIIIG DIFFERENCE. so it's 1oz.alum per 10 oz.water

Hi all:
Yes I had a typo too!. I use 1oz alum per 10 oz water. I will try another batt without any rinsing :)
Thanks!!
RL

"OOOOPS I GOOFED SORRY! i made a typo in my posting. a BIG MISTAKE! i meant 10 oz. alum for 100"

Does anyone of you here had an ‘old’ laptop whose batteries can’t even last 10 minutes? Well, instead of playing with it by tossing it into an open flame to see what happens or throwing it in the dumpster where it’s ecologically not helpful, why don’t you try reviving it?
Yes you can! With some newspapers and a fridge of course. According to the ‘expert’ you need to take those old batteries out of the casing, wrap it in newspapers (thick enough so not much moisture will be in contact with the batteries) and leave it for like a week or so. Let it cool down in room temperature after that for at least a couple of hours or a day.
Once it has settled down in room temperature, wipe off any traces of moisture on the batteries, put the batteries back in its casing, stuff it back in the laptop and charge. (Do not switch the laptop on!) Make sure it is 100% powered up.

which grade of alum i should use, please specify

I saw this battery mod just after my first spring attempted use of my garden tractor. The battery had been charged over the winter a few times, as I run my equipment instead of winterizing. Well, it would not turn the engine over. It showed 4.5 volts and would charge to 14 volts, but would not even run a light for a few minutes.
For the mod I:
1. drained battery
2. flushed out several times
3. mixed one bottle of McCormick Alum, Potassium Aluminum Sulfate or true Potash Alum, from the canning section used for pickling. 1.9oz alum to 64 fluid OZ water
3. charged 14 volts 4 amps until 14 volts, about 8 minutes
4. drew down using 20 watt spot light to 5 volts, took about 2 minutes
5. charged 14 volts 5 amps until 14 volts, about 10 minutes
6. drew down using 20 watt spot light to 5 volts, took about 4 minutes
7. charged 14 volts 2 amps until 14 volts, about 20 minutes
8. drew down using 20 watt spot light to 5 volts, took about 8 minutes
9. charged 14 volts 8 amps until 14 volts, about 20 minutes
10. drew down using 20 watt spot light to 5 volts, took about 30 minutes
11. checked cells, five were 1.85 volts, one was 0.4 volts
12. charged with pulse charger 120 volts 3 amps until 12 volts
13. checked cells, all were 1.85 volts
14. charged 14 volts 10 amps until 13.1 volts, about 15 minutes
15. let battery sit for 30 minutes, stabilized at 11.6 volts
16. put in tractor, cranked over strongly and started. let run for a few minutes
17. let battery sit for one hour, stabilized at 11.6 volts
18. cranked over strongly and started, let run for a few minutes
19. let battery sit for four hours, stabilized at 11.6 volts
20. cranked over strongly and started, let run for a few minutes
9. let battery sit overnight, stabilized at 11.5 volts
20. cranked over strongly and started. let run for a few minutes
21. ran battery down by cranking engine over with no spark
22. slow charged 2 amps to 14.5 volts
23. battery stabilized at 11.6 volts
24. after setting one week tractor cranked over very strong and started

Conclusion, Looks like it worked pretty good. I have read of the mix being 1:10 to 1:64, mine was 1:32. Think I'll try a stronger mix, the 1:10 next time or maybe stauration.

Hi friend:
Neat experiment and test. I will try that on two Trojan 6 volts I have. In what store did you buy your Alum?

Thanks, RL

I took a ten year old battery. Cleaned it out and filled the cells with 1:10 alum / distilled h2o. I could not revive the completely dead battery but I could get it to hold a charge of 2.84 volts. I am guessing cells were too far gone. May try it with a new battery I just purchased for our mower. Will update later.

I too have tried the experiment during this week. I used a battery that after a full charge could start a car 24 hours later. Replaced the battery with a new one but kept the old one to experiment with.
1 Drained all the acid, flushed battery with a weak solution of bicarb of soda a few times,
2 Rinsed with boiling water and poured out,
3 Over a period of a week left the battery standing with a strong bicarb solution,
4. Poured out the bicarb and again rinsed with boiling water followed with distilled water,
5. Prepared a solution 1:10 alum to ionised/distilled water by weight which did not dissolve completely so added more water until the remaining crystals with much shaking dissolved completely; solution then became approximately 1:12 by weight,
6. Put the battery on charge and struck a snag. Battery seemed to charge rapidly but not to reach full charge. My battery charger is a small unit with only 3 settings, trickle, heavy or starting.
7. Connected a digital volt meter and switched from trickle to heavy. The charger seems to cycle between 13,5V ~ 14.2V and indicates an intermittent “battery full” LED, i.e. the LED flickers on and off. In desperation switched to start. The volt meter went steady @ 14.2V, the built amp showed 5 Amps and the battery full LED glowed full on.
8. Disconnected the battery charger and to my dismay the battery voltage dropped down to 11.6V
9. Will put a load on it tomorrow to see if there is any success.

Sorry for posting my message twice. I goofed on the posting anyway; I left out a "not"

I used a battery that after a full charge could NOT start my car 24 hours later

Carlos, Lead Alum is not anything like lead acid chemistry and does not have the same full charge voltage, it is lower voltage innately like all alkaline chemistries. My guess is to get that battery up and running well you will need a battery discharger (or a car if it tolerates it) discharge pretty much fully then recharge several times. A pulse charger helps. Lead alum seems to have less of a voltage drop than lead acid so despite the initial lower voltage the cranking power shouldn't be much different if it works properly. Good Luck

ive been watching my 6 volt battery charging now for about 6 hours and my mix of 1 oz alum to 100 oz distellid water seems to be workingafter i take the charger off ill do a voltage drain with a lite and see how long it last

ok the mix iws 1oz alum to 100 oz distilled water im working on a deep cycle 6 volt batt now almost a full charge running with a desulfator more tomorow

after 24 hours on the charger i took the batt off the charger and hooked up a 24 volt scooter motor ill run it till it dies out althouh chargeing the batt for 24 hours i never saw any bubling of the cellsbut for two hours now the scooter motor is still running ...more later

here are more ...i put the motor on the batt at 9am it ran untill 12 midnite still a very small amount of power the motor was running very slowly thats 15 hours of running time with still some energy left i let the batt sit for 2 hours and hooked up a vmeter 3 volts now its back on the charger for another 24 hrs with desulfator ...more to come

I have done this process and had success. My son's quadbike has a 12V lead acid battery that is only about 6 months old. The ignition was left on for about 24 hours once and the battery was dead. I recharged the battery and it lasted for about 2 months, after which it would not take and hold charge enough to start the bike. I took the battery and emptied out the fluid that was in there. I rinsed it 3 times with boiling water. Then I poured a saturated solution of Bicarbonate soda into it and let it stand overnight until no bubbles were coming out. I emptied that out and rinsed it once with distilled water and emptied that out. Then I put in a Alum:distilled water solution of 1:10 and charged it overnight. Before I started this whole process it showed 9,3V and after charging it with the Alum solution, it showed 13,5V. I then put the battery back into the bike and it cranked strongly and the bike started easily. I started the bike for a few times and the battery remained strong. I will now see how long it lasts. I am now ready to try and revive a old truck battery that is standing on the farm for a few years.

This is very interesting!
I was searching for information to help me make homemade (12 volts) batteries for wind power generators. I was thinking of using 5 gallon plastic containers or even the large blue plastic drums used to transport juice concentrate. This discussion has given me a starting point. Please visit my "generatorblue" channel on youtube to see the first generator prototype made with a bicycle wheel. My contribution is what I call the "magic rotor". I am going to need batteries to store that power. I have replaced the liquid acid in batteries before. I will surely start experimenting with alum as soon as possible

Thank guys!

alum is not silicate - it is potasium aluminum SULPHATE (so4)
battery acid is h2so4 i beleive your just converting alum to h2so4
or similar acid

Hi all: well good news. A battery I had filled with the 1/10 Alum solution and had let stand for months outside is now getting full charge! I decided to try charging it again with my solar system and this Trojan 6 volts battery is holding the charge and charged to 6.15 volts today. It may take a while to charge it to full as it is a 220 amps hour.

Raymond

huh did you not read what i posted raymond?
sepp says its silicate its not!!
ALUM IS potasium aluminum SULPHATE
so whats your point? alum is cheaper than battery acid?
battery acid is H2SO4 a SULPHATE!! so it makes battery acid?
whats your point?

I dont see any magic here!

Hi Steve:
I am not trying to prove anything, just sharing the tests.

What I know is that once the Alum is inside the battery it charges well and I can put my finger inside the solution and the solution will not eat or hurt my finger. I rather work with Alum than with Sulfuric acid! :)
Raymond

Hi all:

That old 6 volts 220 mHa Trojan was not holding charge when it had the reg. acid. With the Alum it charged and now holds the charge to 6.30 volts and I have been using it in my Solar system for a week now!

There are so many “ALUMS” Out there it makes the mind boggle. The “ALUM” that we are looking for is known by many names i.e. Silicic acid or Aluminium sodium salt or Sodium Aluminosilicate or Aluminosilicic acid or Sodium salt or Sodium Aluminium Silicate or Aluminum Sodium Silicate or Sodium Silico Aluminate.

Whatever the name one thing is true - the chemical formula is Al Na12 SiO5. The formula for Potassium Alum is KAlSi3O8.

Quoting from Wikipedia
“Alums are useful for a range of industrial processes. They are soluble in water; have an astringent, acid, and sweetish taste; react acid to litmus; and crystallize in regular octahedra. When heated they liquefy; and if the heating is continued, the water of crystallization is driven off, the salt froths and swells, and at last an amorphous powder remains.

Potassium alum is the common alum of commerce, although soda alum, ferric alum, and ammonium alum are manufactured.
Aluminium sulfate is sometimes called alum in informal contexts, but this usage is not regarded as technically correct. Its properties are quite different from those of the set of alums formally described above.”

In South Africa one can only source Aluminum Sodium Silicate from specialised Chemical Distributors. I discovered my ALUM at a chemist. HOORAY!! The chemist promised to get me the chemical formula, and, to my dismay I discovered that the Alum that I used, like many of us have, is different – it is Aluminium Potassium Silicate and this is definitely not the “alkaline” alum; I however did get some startling results.

The converted battery was put on load using a 65W quartz halogen searchlight. After 2 hour, voltage dropped from 11,6V down to 10,2V when it was switched off. Overnight it went back up to 11.4V. Switched on for 2 hours at which point it went down to 9V. The cycle was repeated again in each consecutive night until the battery was down to a mere 4V. At this point it recovered to 8V and drew down rapidly afterwards.

Battery was recharged and on applying load it was definitely stronger. This time I discharged it down to 4V in a single 6hr session. The cycle was repeated 4 times, the battery seemingly gaining strength, when the battery reached 12.5V, fully charged, after a charging session using a pulse charger. What amazes me is the charging rate; in less than 1 hour it showed 11.5V with the additional 1V to fully charged taking another hour.

On tasting the electrolyte, no I am not stupid; I did not find it acidic at all. Both Potassium and Sodium alums are used in food preservation and cooking according to my chemist.

I tried it in my car and after 2 weeks it has dropped down to 12.4V where it seems to have stabilised but it still cranks better the new replacement. I still have not managed to trace the correct alum. I was warned by my brother that I could damage my alternator due to the lower voltages of the “ALUM” battery. When the charge rate was checked with all electrical devices on, it was in fact lower than with the normal lead acid battery. The alternator could overcharge as the battery is effectively the voltage regulator and the alternator is set to cut out or cut in at a certain voltage. The danger of a runway overcharging alternator was deemed insignificant after thourough testing; in fact, in my experience, it will work less due to the rapid charge characteristics of the alum battery.

BUT BE WARNED – OVERCHARGING CAN TAKE PLACE.

Should you wish to use a converted battery on your daily rider, I suggest that you have the charge rate checked to prevent a costly alternator rebuild.

Did some research and found that E554 is the same as Sodium silicoaluminate ,AlNa12SiO5.

Did some more research and found that E555 is the same as

Microcline or Potassium aluminium silicate , KAlSi3O8.

E numbers are number codes for food additives and are usually found
on food labels throughout the European Union.

Regards.

Hi Caros and hans:
Neat info thank you!

PS On checking my batteries in the solar batt bank. The highest charge was the 6 volts 220 ah Trojan converted with Alum at 7 volts the others were 5.6 and 6 volts.
RL

Hi all:
Could anyone provide a list of sources and prices for Alum please?
I was able to find some on ebay at $10.00.
Thanks!
Raymond

Im very interested in converting brand new batteries that havent had the sulphuric acid poured into them yet. You can buy these GC2 deep cycle 6v batteries dry and then they put the liquid in.
My question is to Carlos and others, How are the batteries you converted holding up?

Im very interested in converting brand new batteries that havent
had the sulphuric acid poured into them yet.
You can buy these GC2 deep cycle 6v batteries dry and
then they put the liquid in.
My question is to Carlos and others,
How are the converted batteries you converted holding up?

I am very interested in all of the above discussion.
I am sick of constantly buying new batteries for my farm vehicles every 3 years and have accumulated about a dozen that still charge up ok but go flat after about 2 weeks of non use.
My problem is that I don't know where to get hold of the Aluminium Sodium Silicate. The Alum everybody has talked about getting in the pickling section of the supermarket is really Aluminium Potassium SULPHATE.
The stuff we need is used as an anti-caking agent in table salt and is coded E554.
Chemists seem to be a good source, but for the quantities I need they would be a bit expensive.
Another problem I have is resolving the problem of solubility in water.
According to info in the Silcates pdf link the AlNaS we need has a solubility of 48mg/lt at 20c and 6660mg/lt at 30c. this is nowhere near the 1 to 64 or 1 to 100 ratio recommended.
So I think a lot of you guys are using the wrong stuff.
Has anyone thought of using Sodium Silicate (water glass)?
This stuff is very soluble, cheap and easily available.

I have talked to a chemist here in NZ but he studied a long time ago. It may be possible to drain the acid then put in Aluminium foil then baking soda, wait for the fun to finish then put it back without the bits of lead. I haven't tried it? what do others think?

I like the idea By Philippe on July 8, 2008 9:13 PM

If you get 12 50 gallo platic drums o (one anode one cathode) , put them in series and you would have a HUGE 12 volt battery with undown but probably enprmuuos AH capacity.

I would like to try it (Iv'e got 10 acres in the woods. Has anyone done it or intersted in following through?

Jeff Ruhren
solarwindpower@yahoo.com
solarwind alternative energy

Report back:

The converted battery is going strong but I removed it from the car, a Citroen C5, for fear of cooking the electrics with the wrong voltage/s. The C5 uses multiplexing and very small variations can cause problems like a “resetting” whilst on the move.

I have not given up yet. I am now trying to find Sodium silico aluminate to E554 specification and purity with not much luck.

What I have discovered is that the initial concentration of the electrolyte that I used is much too high. I have since duplicated the test on another faulty battery changing the solution using Potassium aluminium silicate E555 to 1 part alum and 150 parts distilled water with precisely the same results as a far stronger result. I am going to dilute the electrolyte further and re-test.

The original battery is now being used as the backup for an electric gate. In south Africa we suffer from regular and lengthy electricity blackouts, called “LOAD SHEDDING” in the local parlance so a strong battery is required. The little, piddly standard battery was good (when new) for approximately 8 open / close cycles. The converted battery just goes on forever.

I have also repeated the charge / discharge tests on the latest battery with similar results. I have now blown 2 x 100W halogen (headlight) globes; I use the globes as “load” for my tests. I have drained the battery to zero on several occasions and still it takes a charge and performs.

Once I get hold of E554 I am going to repeat the test on the cheapest new dry battery I can find. This research shows a lot of potential.

This is great info guys. So today I went looking for Alum & tracked some down at the local pool store. At the local Garden Nursery they sell Magnesium Sulfate, I reasoned that since both compounds are metal sulphates & that they are very similar metals, then Magnesium Sulfate (Epsom Salts) may also work ok. Well a Google turns up this document

http://www-rci.rutgers.edu/~crisitel/EV/Battery%20repair.doc

So tonight I'm actually going to try the MGSulphate first. It says nothing about neutralising the sulphate buildup with Baking Soda. Since reading the advice here I've already done this on a previously dead battery overnight. So we'll see what results will come of it.

Well here's a quick update on the progress so far. The battery I chose to experiment with is a 450cca Exide HD marked as manufactured in 2000. The manufacturer offered a 24 month warranty from new. Well this battery came out of a truck I sold a while ago that had sat for a few years collecting dust. As I remember the battery got to the point where it wouldn't crank anymore, the trucks clock was the culprit for the slow drain. I had one of those solar boosters attached to it but eventually it gave up the ghost. When I sold the truck recently it hadn't been started for over a year. So the new owner installed a new battery & left me the dead one. So you could say that battery hasn't worked or been charged from dead flat for over a year now & at eight years old one would have to consider it was a lost case. So moving along, this one is the battery I treated last night with a warm solution of Sodium Bicarbonate & today I flushed it out with distilled water. The plates inside look shiny & new. Then I installed the solution of 15 parts water to 1 part Epsom Salts (Magnesium Sulphate) & set it on charge at 4 amps & 13.4 volts. Well the battery cells all showed ok which was a relief. After an hour the battery is holding 11.3 volts. I disconnected & drained the battery down using a 12 volt 50 watt halogen light to 7.2 volts then when I detached the light the voltage stabilised at 10.4 volts. So that's a very promising start for the MG Sulphate. Lets see how the battery goes tomorrow. I also have an older battery that I'm going to install with Alum. Be an interesting comparison & if I can revive this one it'll be a miracle as it looks in very poor condition inside.

This morning after charging the Exide MG Sulfate battery overnight. Well the results have far exceeded my original expectations. The battery is holding charge at 12.6 volts. I hooked up the Halogen 50 watt light & left it running for fifty minutes discharging down to 10 volts. After disconnecting it stabilsed at 11.3 volts so it only lost 1.3 volts in fifty minutes. An excellent result for a former dumpster battery. The second battery in very poor condition & is currently undergoing the Bicarb treatment, I washed out lots of lead fragments from it. I'll start to charge this one tonight after work. The purpose of my experimenting is to provide a storage bank of electricity to power my workshop & electric bicycle from a home made wind turbine. I'm trying to use as many recycled items as possible including the two 24 volt motor/generators from some old E'Scooters I salvaged.

The second battery was filled with the 1:15 Epsom Salts solution & charged overnight at 2 amps. Presently it's holding charge at 11.5 volts. I was very surprised this one worked at all despite it's poor condition. The battery was manufactured in 1996. It has been sitting dead with the old acid electrolyte for over three years now. Pretty amazing result ! I guess the reason for the lower charge would relate to it's internal condition which is very poor. I managed to flush out all the loose material inside & it works so it will be fine for a stationary reserve application. I have one more battery to try. This ones been sitting in an old Kombi I'm restoring dry on it's side for over six years.

Well it turns out that the second battery is very low on storage capacity so what I plan to do is recycle it for some other purpose. I took the original battery that I recharged with MG Sulfate to work today & put it on the load tester. After we fully charged the battery we put it under test load & it performed very well. just as good as a new battery. remember this battery was dead for a year & wouldn't take charge. Well some other things worth mentioning from our experimenting. The solution is very acidic now but on a hydrometer it doesn't even register on the bulb so the electrolyte is definitely different to the H2SO4 acid type. To sum it all up the process works better than expected. Here's my final procedure.

1. Wear suitable safety equipment for acid handling, IE:Cover skin, Rubber Gloves, Goggles, Fume Mask would also be good. Drain the acid electrolyte into a bucket of sand or soil. Bag & dispose of contents properly.

2. Flush any loose material from the battery with tap water & a hose. Be careful not to splash any contents on you as it may still contain traces of dilute acid.

3. Mix up a warm solution of Sodium Bicarbonate in water. Tap water is OK for this. I used two tablespoons in 4 litres. (4.2 Quarts) & that worked really well. carefully pour the contents into the battery wearing your safety gear as it may bubble vigorously upon pouring into the dirty cells.

4. Leave the Bicarb in the battery overnight. Drain & flush the Bicarb solution with distilled water. The contents may contain liberated acids & lead products so it would pay to expel the fluids into a safe disposal area.

5. Mix a ratio of 1:15 Epsom Salts (Magnesium Sulfate) to distilled water on a stove to warm but not boiling water. Carefully fill each cell of the battery to the recommended level & set on a 2-4 amp charge. I think a trickle charge would be best.

6. Check the voltage. If at 4 amps after around 15-20mins a good battery should read around 11.5 - 11.8 volts. Continue to charge & leave overnight. If your battery is going to be OK it will be around half it's final output after the first charge. I checked mine with a 50watt 12 volt halogen downlight. Drawing 4 amps this gives you a good idea of the performance. But beware of the manufacturers ratings printed on the battery as they can be overstated for sales purposes. After charging a few times the battery will increase steadily in capacity. The best test is to bolt your MG Sulfate battery into a car and see how it performs. The original Heavy Duty 460cca battery I recycled is a bull terror !! It just keeps pumping out the amps under load. I actually think it's better than the original acid type. It survived 8 20 second load tests to 200 amps on the load tester & held steady at 12 volts. That's a pretty good result. Well good luck with it all. Stay Safe. Dave.

Feng Yuesheng is credited on the Guineng site with the invention of the technology that they use. According to Espacenet, he has or shares nine patents on silicate battery technology, including some US patents. Downloading the patents now.

hi everyone. did anybody try this with a new battery??

Hi again. did anybody nail down the alum issue?? because i just spent 2 hours searching google and yahoo and the only type of alum i found was the sulfate type, not the silicate.. anybody got a url?

FYI, alum is not a silicate, it is a sulfate.

I went out and bought a new motorcycle battery. The kind they sell dry, with a bottle of Sulphuric acid. So this battery never had been a battery before. I found a bottle of Alum in the spices section, it's a Kroger brand, but the bottle only says it's Alum, nothing more specific. I mixed up a solution of 10 parts water to 1 part alum and filled the battery. I then charged the battery up. I have cycled a load on it a couple of times so far, and it acts just like a regular lead acid battery. However, since I don't have a control battery to compare against it, I don't know if it performs the same, better, or worse than the acid chemistry. I suppose I can spend another $40 for another battery to be more scientific about this. I am amazed it even works in the first place, since the chemistry is obviously different than the usual sulphuric acid process.

So any one narrowed down the proper chemical and concentration for stable long run success conversion?

And does this conversion for like new battery eliminate build ups and extend battery life?

If yes what is the life expectancy for converted like new battery if done properly?

Hi. I bought a motorcycle battery too, brand new and dry. I will use McCormick Alum(1.9 oz) for the test.
My doubt is: Is it necessary to use sulfated batteries or it works in new batteries too?
As soon as i finish the test i will post the results here. Thank you! Regards. Luciano

Hi Dave:
Thanks for the info, great results!
How much Epsom Salt do you add per liter of water please?

Thank you!
RL

I am going to try this on a 6 volts 340 amp/hour Trojan

Hi Sepp,

Do you have any idea about the electrochemistry of the Guineng battery? Is it still based on Lead, but with different electrolyte (silicate salt)? What are the chemical half reactions (cathode, anode) of this battery? Could Guineng have used the carbon electrode technology, like that of Firefly and AxionPower?

Hi friends:
I found this very interesting information about using Epsom Salts to repair batteries.

http://ysuusy.com/Lead_Acid_Car_Battery_Repair.html

RL

Koen,

I have no idea about the Guineng battery technology. One of the earlier commenters said that they went out of business, that they had used someone else's invention without authorization, but no one apparently has any technical details about that battery tech.

Hi all:
I am now testing 7 batteries using the Epsom Salts mix. I used 10 Table Spoons per quart of water. These are Trojan Batteries that were not able to get charge and were left outside for a year. So far all batteries are getting charge. It would take a while as these are over 300 amps/H deep cycle batteries. I will post results.

RL

I have few batteries in cleaning process :
draining acid and neutralizing with baking soda,
filing with baking soda and h2o mixture and letting sit few days then flushing.Repeated this twice.Then filling with h2O only and puting it on charger for 20hrs.

I can tel how clean the inside is now.

Ready to pour in the new electrolite.

PLEASE I NEED source of the correct alum and mixture that have been tested successfully in long run.

THANK YOU SO MUCH

Good stuff everyone!

Now, what do I add to the alum/water solution to keep it from freezing in the wintertime? I'm sure that a water and alum will make a nice battery popsicle.

Anyone try some windshield washer fluid or antifreeze solution? Any ideas?

Does the battery hold a charge at zub-zero temperatures?

Thanks for any info!

Thanks for the information I was looking for something that I could use on the farm as a standby energy

So does the Alum battery wear out by returning to a "new" lead acid battery state? Minus the acid of course.

Any idea if this electolyte will freeze in the winter?
Confused on which is best at this point, epsom salts or alum?

what is alum

I followed the information here with interest, and I would like to know how are the recovered batteries behaving after this time. Still going?

I took a look into Dave's MgSO4 (Epson Salt) battery and it appears that the operation could be:

Pb(s) + PbO2 (s) + 2 MgSO4 -> 2 PbSo4 (s) + 2 MgO (s)
or
Pb(s) + PbO2 (s) + 2 MgSO4 + 4 H+ + 4 OH- -> 2 PbSo4 (s) + 2 H2O + 2 Mg(OH)2

I am no chemistry expert, but I think the second equation is the more likely to occur.

Both equations have a Magnesium precipitate, either the Magnesium Oxide or Magnesium hydroxide. This precipitate is a good thing, because it relates to the extension of the reaction.

The magnesium ion has a high reduction potential (above Pb or PbO) so it should not participate in any redox equation (no deposition of magnesium metal in the plates).

So it appears to be a good battery, without the acid environment. If the Magnesium hydroxide equation is the right one, the dissolved salt would result in a alkaline electrolyte (did you test the pH of charged the battery Dave?).

As for the aluminum sodium silicate, I have no idea...

With the economy being what it is and being laid off from work, I was looking for something, really anything I could do to fill the gap so to speak. I tried to buy a used golf cart recently and found out that if the batteries went bad it would cost over $700 to replace them, half the cost of a used cart. I got online to figure out how to recondition weak/bad batteries, that is when I ran across this site.
I used to work as a heavy equipment mechanic so I know a little about batteries, but I got to say that there are some very bright people out there!! I have read everything on this site and tried what I've learned on a battery that was in the yard on the ground that removed from a car a year ago, 4 years old, 5.2volts, & dropped to 0volts when load tested instantly.
Thought maybe it had 2-3 bad cells in it and would make a good starter project battery. Well, after dumping old acid, rinsing(all kinds of stuff came out and by the way, I checked the voltage at this point, it was still 5.2volts), adding warm baking soda/water mix(yes it did bubble like crazy) & emptied after no more reaction, rinsing again, then filling w/hot Epsom's salt/water mix(decided to go with 1:8 mix, thought with the bad cells, it couldn't hurt), and then placed on trickle charge over night.
WOW, the next morning I checked and found that the battery charged to 12.4volts(really wasn't expecting that). I load tested it and it dropped down to 8.3volts(which is in the 'BAD' range) but it HOLDS at 8.3v during the 15 second draw and jumps back up to 12volts after draw. Now I done this 3 times with the same results. I know that this might not sound like a big deal but remember, this battery had only 5.2v and dropped to nothing when loaded.
I would appreciate if some of the folks who posted earlier on this site would let me know how their batteries are working for them, as for me, I'm going to convert every battery I have and getting ready to start a small battery reconditioning service in the area that I live in. Yall have a good day and God Bless.

Hi all,
Tried the epsom salts in a new dry battery with unsatisfactory results. On introducing the liquid mixed at the recommended 10-1 the battery immediatly registered 6.7 volts. I charged at 5 amps for 4 days until the battery stabelised at 11.6 volts. Fitted the battery to test vehicle which cranked like flat battery, would not sustain any load. Removed and put back on charge for further 5 days, same result, will not charge over 11.6 volt and will not carry load. Disappointing as really sounded the goods.
Am about to drain the epsom salts mixture and try the alum, will keep poasted.

Alum can be had inexpensively at any pool store it is sold in 40 to 50 lb bags, it is used as a water clearifying agent or a (flocking) agent!

... two cents worth

This seems too good to be true.. Can anyone offer feedback on how long the batteries are lasting after revival? Are they being used in deep cycle applications ie solar PVs ?

Thanks

Supraveni Chemicals manufactures plenty of chemical products like sodium sulphate, sulphuric acid, nitric acid, hydrochloric acid, barium sulphate & sodium hydroxide

SO, will batteries freeze when converted using alum or magnesium sulfate???

I have read all about alum has anyone tried power batt which gets rid of sulphate and crystals.
look at worktown.com

if anyone is still looking for sodium aluminum silicate, cas # 554. capitol scientific, austin texas, ph# 512 836 1167, has available a technical grade, $22.46 for 500g plus shipping. contact jennifer hewgley. i have dealt with this company on an occasional basis for over 30 years for small amounts of some very exotic chemicals and have never been anything but satisfied. has anyone ever actually seen this chinese patent? i would love to know the electrochemistery and the chemical half reactions, happy experimenting!

I am a vintage radio collector and have tried this today with a 2 Volt accumulator which is 80 years old. It worked! I had a bit of trouble understanding the ratio too so ended up using 50 gram of Alum to a pint of distilled water.

I tried potasium aluminium
sulfate, works ok with maxiumum terminal voltage of 11.5 -7 volts.

Unable to hold a 100 amp load at over 8.5 volts.

Works better when not cleaning out with bi carb. After some testing I beleive 11.7 is the limit with standard Alum E555!
It is highly likely that they will start a car if converted right. Amp draw and supply is excellent and would make a good utility lighting supply for 12 GU10 LED's

You do have to repeately charge discharge against load to get these conversions to hold their charge at 11.7 volts. Would love to get 12.5 volts with standard alum however I beleive not possible with Alum.

I have ordered 2 Kg of e554 sodium aluminium silicate from China. Will post results after draining some of the four working converted batteries
of their Alum E555 solution.

regards
Stevec

I have still not receieved the sodium aluminium silicate yet - fed up. So to keep my hand in a had another go at recovering a dead (8.5 Volt)car battery.
Removed the acid, flushed with filtered rain water and refilled with the remainder of my Alum mix. I have performed three full charge discharges, the voltage went up really slowly on the third attempt to 14.5 volts. I could hear the Alum bubbling inside the cell -worring. Left over night, in the morning read 10.5 volts, probably a dead cell! Interestingly I put my 12 volt 20 watt GU bulb across the battery. It had a good brightness to it and it was drawing 1.6 amps! I noticed the volts drop to 9.67 and holding pretty good. So I now have a great 9 volt supply, giving out a really good am
perage! Does not seem to be dropping that fast at all only slowly on the meter tenths scale, amazing for a scrap battery! Originally the voltage fell from 8.6 v to almost nothing when I put the same light across it. I am thinking now of using a DC-DC convertor to push up the volts to 12 or 18 v to allow me to use modern 12 volt LED high brightness lamps for my garage or home!

Bearing in mind that these newer LED lights only consume about (1.5 W) about 250 milli amps, so should be on for quite a while with the converted cell.
PS I think I will collect some of the bubbling gas to see if it really is hydrogen - careful! Does any one actually know what it should be with Alum mix!

Regards
Stevec

Good info here. Has anyone tested a battery with the alum then replaced with sulphuric acid. plus of course recording the results? I think you guys may be doing all the battery improvements by cleaning out the crap not replacing the acid with alum. sulphification of the plates and shorting out is usually the cause of a deceased battery. Please prove me wrong.
Cheers
Jamie.

Did you received your order from PRC?

How did the test go?

SHARE ;)

Great forum..

Any body know how long the salted batteries last?

Ive got a pile of batteries that stopped charging. I was going to recycle, then found this website. Hopefully can resurrect some of them.

Definitely clean them out with some baking soda, then kinda on the fence weather or not to just use acid or (is the salt an alkaline solution) or to salt.. My big concern is weather the salt degrades the battery plates faster? or if the solution weakens faster? I would prefer the salt simply because the acid is so, well, acidic, and corrodes the enclosures the batteries are in. I guess the salt would probably do the same. But salt water seems safer..

But either way. Really appreciate all the great info here!

Also quite impressed with the world. Some very bright, and talented people out there!

Having a number of dead batts around I rinsed one out last night and filled with a mixture of KOH (9oz by weight to 1gal distilled H2O) Initially V=8.5 after 10min on 2a charge V=10.7
Left on 2a charge through the night will check and cycle this morning. Just curious what we can do thinking outside the box.

KOH Electrolyte
The following morning battery was at 13.5v, not having a battery load tester available I plugged into a pair of head lamps and let go for 3.5hrs v dropped to 11.76v next hooked up a PM dc motor (tape drive type 12-36v>15a)and left it for another 5hrs, v@9.35 put back on charger. Next morning 11.5v bumped with 100a starting charge (less than a minute) v climbed to 12.75v and quickly returned to 11.5v and seems to maintain that with out self discharging.
Have taken battery to Auto parts store and asked them to check. The computerized tester indicates a rapid voltage and amperage uptake then shuts down indicating a dry battery (no acid)or high internal resistance. ??? would a stronger KOH solution (lower resistance) Increase available amperage in battery.
Just a thought

Great Forum!!
Can anyone please tell me the the right Alum to be used as an electrolyte?

Guys I have been out of action for some time with a frozen shoulder, getting better now. My 2 Kg of e554 sodium aluminium silicate from China was not ordered as the supplier emailed me saying he only sold water glass!
Does any one know where I can get this chemical, often referred to by other scientific names? It should be a food additive, so you think it would be easy to obtain right? I am convinced it is the key to 12.5 volts and above. Its definitely NOT alum!
I found a guy in China- Alibaba express, who sells a patented alkaline battery!! I'll find the link and post it to you soon.
Don't give up yet guys! Don't clean the original batteries out, I suspect that the lead sulphate crystals are doing some thing unusual when combined with alkaline substances, I am unable to prove this directly as dead lead acids are so variable.
My four converted batteries were left out in the garage over the winter while I was out of action, and still hold at 10.7 11.00 volts! I can charge then back up to 15 volts, however over night they drop back again.

Iyan, my understanding of the chemical "Alum" is that it is called "potassium aluminium sulphate", often called "potash alum",KAl(SO4)2. I bought mine on ebay, it looks like a white powder. You will not get 12 volts remaining on the battery once the charge settles out over night.

Find sodium aluminuium silicate
E554, then tell me where I can buy it with out ordering a ton of it!

Regards
Steve

Regards
Steve

Interesting read

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7501205.html

regards
Stevec

Hai frinds, nice stuff here,i m from india and in india alum is easy available on every gernal store at a low cost, natural solid crystal white alum is also available and in pink colour too,i m also a lead acid battry mainufactror, i will try these formalas on scrap and new battries, result will be post vry soon

Having the same trouble finding the Sodium Aluminum Silicate found the only manufacturer in the US discontinued making it 2 years ago. Rumor is the government is looking too lock up Alum battery tech, no idea of validity and who know about the good old boy club of battery manufacturers.
A few other substances are looking promising

I'm closing comments on this article. Fending off the spam bots is becoming too time consuming.

If you have something legitimate and important to say or ask, please email me at sepp (at) lastrega (followed by a dot and com)...

I then might put it up here.

Received by email - a good update on what has been discussed here for some time...

just wanted to provide an update for you regarding the results and further experimentation by myself and on the net by John Bendini.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ihOxdKiYmo

I continued with the battery mix and used Aluminium sulphate only, as suggested by John B, this is in a concentrated solution. John Bendini suggested it should feel slippery or soapy to the touch. If the old battery has no shorted cells it can be brought into operation by a continually charging and discharging process, eventually it takes a long time to charge the converted battery, and it is showing large amperage on the battery charger, eventually dropping down. Excellent, will not start a car, but still supply plenty of current for medium power inverter operation and will sustain 11.6 volts under sustained load for a long time. What's more these converted cells can be drained to 2 volts or less and still charge back up successfully. Amazing!! Great for my 10 LED 3 watt GU10 bulbs, light my whole house no problem.

You would not believe the current these converted batteries can produce over continued sustained loads, the average resting terminal voltage I have obtained is 12.2 volts. Capacity during cold periods is better than lead acid! The recharging process seems to be improving over time, no evidence for that but I have a good feel for what is happening now.

I have been looking into Tom Bearden's research regarding the fact that all dipoles if charged into a super capacitor bank or source storage and then discharged from the storage after disconnected from the battery or source, net result has "No effect on the battery drain or terminal voltage" It works!! All potential has nothing to do with current and is unlimited, a battery is a localised source of this photon flux that is all around us. I have feeling you know about these things and Johns recent work.

Thanks for the opportunity to take part in your forem and what is had led to in discoveries for me, and of course the courage you took to start it all.

Kind regards
Steve

When some one is not and expert in any subject, he does not know what is impossible to achieve! And there for what he might find out that others missed or dismissed in the first place.

May have missed it but will a converted battery stand sub zero temperatures when fully charged?