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Schauberger Q and A - Making the Data Available

Viktor Schauberger, the water wizard of early 20th Century Austria or, as I have called him, the father of implosion technology, is a fascinating figure in that his views on technology were just about diametrically opposed to the idea of steam and internal combustion based technical applications that characterize our industrial revolution heritage.

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Viktor Schauberger (Image credit: www.evert.de)

Schauberger loved to work with water and he figured out how to use that medium to best effect, controlling temperature and mode of flow. His work involved wooden sluices to transport logs over great distances, devices to enhance the quality and health effects of water, a turbine harnessing the power of vortex flow in water and later on some more technical applications like a self-contained generator (never finished) and a proof-of-principle vortex based flying saucer device which got lost in the competition between the east-west super powers that emerged after World War II.

Two of my early articles (Understanding Water Power and Dynamic Hydropower) analyze applications of that different technology as envisioned by Schauberger. The example in both is a turbine harnessing vortex-enhanced flow in water.

[Added in July 2008:] Schauberger used to say what we need to do is k&k (kapieren und kopieren), in English understand [nature] and copy [its designs].

At the time, that was a pun, a play on words. K&K was a very much used term for the Austro/Hungarian monarchy.

Almost a century later, scientists seem to come back to what Schauberger then suggested. Schauberger had observed trouts and gleaned innovative principles for motion in water. Today, scientists are starting to study whales and dolphins and they see things that contradict engineering knowledge about aerodynamic design. There is talk about applying these discoveries to technical design of wind turbines and similar stuff. Here is the article talking about this:

Whales and dolphins influence new wind turbine design

Esa Ruoho of the Modern Energy Research Library MerLib.org asked the other day, if I would mind answering a few questions on my views regarding Schauberger. I said no problem, and here is what I got myself into...

Q and A on Schauberger and related things

Esa: Ok. Hello Sepp Hasslberger.
I'm going to do this as a continuous conversation type piece. There will be hardly any editing.

The first question is:
Do you believe that the translations of Callum Coats are the whole picture of what Viktor Schauberger suggested, or do you believe that there would be a certain welcome for other translations of Viktor Schauberger's writings? The translations done by Albert Zock (found in the Implosion-booklet published by Borderland Sciences), for instance, carry a subtle difference compared to Callum Coats.

Sepp: I cannot comment on the Callum Coats' translations, because I have not read them and - more importantly - have not compared them with the original. Certainly, it would be positive to have more than one source for a translation of Viktor Schauberger's works. Schauberger's articles are full of nuances that are hard to understand for even someone very familiar with the language he spoke.

Perhaps a Schauberger translations wiki could help find the right nuances...


Are there any favourite points that come to mind out of the translations/writings of Callum Coats on the subjects, that come to mind as one that would bear clarification?

No, I haven't studied Coats' books.


Can you think of any key points, the intensity of which often goes unnoticed, when people read information on Viktor Schauberger on-line and otherwise?

Yes, certainly the key point Viktor Schauberger made was that ALL of our technical knowledge and applications are going in the wrong direction, actually are diametrically opposing natural motion instead of utilizing it. The operative phrase was "Ihr bewegt falsch", meaning "you are using the wrong type of motion" (in all of your technical applications). I don't think that this has been coming out very clear yet.

Anyone who would want to continue where Viktor Schauberger left off, or even only to recover some of his "lost" inventions, should not look at contemporary technology for hints. Schauberger condemned the technology based on the wheel (there's no such thing as a wheel in nature) and on explosion, heat and radiation, practically the totality of what we have now by way of technical achievements.


Have you had access to the german Implosion-magazines? Are there any specific issues you would recommend for further reading?

Yes, I have the Implosion magazines. There are over 140 of them, each with at least one or two original articles of Viktor Schauberger. They are a treasure trove of original information, not all of it easy to understand. No, I couldn't point to any specific issue. It's a study. There are gems in just about all of the issues.

I think what could help would be a project (perhaps best wiki based) to first collect the original articles and then to translate each one of them, putting the German and English version next to each other, so it can easily be checked and translations amended.

My view is that going back to the original articles and to the original designs in their original context, we might gain a better understanding of what Viktor was trying to tell us, than by books that mirror someone's understanding of what they read...


Do you believe that the new Jorg Schauberger book Das Wesen des Wassers, due out this month or april 2006, will help the need for further information on Viktor Schauberger to be made available?
(related URL: http://www.pks.or.at/details-daswesen.html)

Yes, I think the book goes in the right direction, as it publishes original writings (with comments by Joerg Schauberger, his grandson). But still I think it is only a first step to understanding. We should strive to make all of his original records available, not only in German, but also in English, so researchers can go to the source of the technology directly.


Have you seen any of the two documentaries on Viktor Schauberger, "Sacred Living Geometry", "Nature Was My Teacher"? Are you aware of others?

No, I have not seen these documentaries.

There is another documentary, fairly recent, of a German TV journalist, Franz Fitzke. It was shown in German TV in 2005, and is available as a DVD (German language) by the title "Die Wasserheiler" (The Water Healers). It is the first one top left on this page: http://www.fechnermedia.de/verlag/

An earlier film by the same author, by the name "Die Wassermeister" (The Water Masters) is available on the same page. I have not seen that earlier film.


Have you met people such as Andreas Epp or Klaus Rauber, or anyone else related to this area of interest? Anything interesting to share of a meeting of minds on related subjects?

No, I haven't met with Epp or Rauber, and have no insights to share on that one.


Do you intend to visit the 2006 May PKS Seminar, where Curt Hallberg, Jane Cobbald, Klaus Rauber and John Wilkes delivering lectures?

No, so far I have no plans to attend.


Have you been contacted many times over your website information on Viktor Schauberger? Any interesting contacts?

Yes, I have been contacted by many people on Schauberger and on my articles. Mostly they were requests for further information and for present-day implementations of the technology Schauberger envisioned. I helped and made suggestions where I could, but unfortunately there is no real duplication of what Viktor Schauberger has done more than half a century ago.

Which idea of Viktor Schauberger's, when it comes to his suggested machines, do you believe would be the easiest and the most liable to happen? Which one holds the most promise for the least work? Which do you believe will be finished first, out of his suggested things such as a Repulsine, or a Klimator?

The easiest one to duplicate would be his "Sog Turbine" or Suction Turbine, on which he took out a patent, now in the public domain. I tried to describe this in my article Dynamic Hydropower.

The turbine could be used in a fixed application like a power station. A more immediate use could be a self-contained turbine unit that can be anchored from a river bank and utilize the dynamic energy contained in the flowing water, zooming it up by vortex action. This would be similar to a large airplane turbine, only that the water flowing through it would give us energy, rather than the burning of some hydrocarbon-type fuel.


Do you believe that the ancients, with their various symbols such as the infinity-8-symbol, were leaving us clues as to key factors of polarity, magnetism, implosion, +/- 3-based trinary-type ways of thinking about nature and the world itself, and energycreation?

I am sure they did, but I haven't had occasion to study this. There seem to be numerous unexplained archeological finds that just sit there because no one can interpret them in the reference frame of today's technologies. Mostly these things that don't fit our paradigm are hidden away to avoid embarrassment.


Have you consciously connected Nikola Tesla and Viktor Schauberger, and what were the results thereof?

Tesla and Schauberger were contemporaries, but I have no information that they had any dealings with each other. That would make sense because Tesla was into electricity and magnetism while Schauberger was into water. I don't think they connect, other than being both of great genius and decades if not centuries ahead of their times.


Whilst studying in Italy and Russia, how did you come across Viktor Schauberger, what were your influences and sources of interest, who did you meet and what pulled you into the world of suction, implosion and water?

I never did study in Russia - just for the record. I took part in some conferences on alternative physics in St. Petersburg, sharing some of my thoughts. I believe I came across Schauberger while in Italy (I am originally German) and getting interested in physics and energy in the early 1990's. A stimulating publication was "Energy Unlimited" and a newsletter called "Causes" by William Baumgartner. There was a site, now defunct, where Baumgartner went into some detail on vortex technology. Here is an archived version. The original went off line some time after July 2007: http://www.vortexscience.com/


Do you believe that there is sense in creating a hybrid of Viktor Schaubeger's vortex-based motion, and small neodymium magnets being swirled around by water in an hourglass-type shape whilst outside it is coiling connected into batteries?

I don't think that water and electricity mix well in that sense. Magnets being swirled around reminds me of Searle, who says he had a self-running device made up of magnetic rollers and magnetized rings, which he said was used in a flying disc and could give free electricity. I have never seen the device, said to have been destroyed, although I did correspond and talk with Searle. (http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/articlejohnsearle.shtml) This is just to say that there are simpler ways to swirl the magnets than bathing them in water.


What do you think of the language-barrier that is between German, Swedish and English information? There are quite a few articles, books, lectures and documentaries available in German only, on Viktor Schauberger and Nikola Tesla. Would English-speaking people find lots of interesting material that they are unable to access due to the language-barrier? Can you think of one, or a few, books available only in German that you believe should be translated and re-iterated in various formats?

Our problems with understanding Viktor Schauberger are not really due to a language barrier between German, Swedish and English. The problem goes much deeper. Schauberger is already one step removed from German, with an Austrian/Bavarian dialect. But more importantly, he coined a whole series of new terms to describe his discoveries, which are not even part of the German language or of the particular dialect that was his.

Even for me, that I am from roughly the same area as Viktor, it is difficult at times to understand what he means with his technical terms as they are not defined in any dictionary.

So another point in favor of the wiki approach: I could imagine that his works can be combed to find out where he first used (and in what context) each one of the terms he coined to describe his findings, and whether he gave a definition for it. That is something I was really missing when studying his writings.


I've seen you write up thoughts on the Richad H. Clem motor. In retrospect, do you have anything to add to this vegetable oil + fluid motion-based motor, have you had any recent thoughts on it, or where would you suggest persons to move in mining further information on this?

I think the Clem motor was a fortuitous discovery, but one that overcame a limit Schauberger ran into with his "Heimkraftwerk" (Home Power Station). Apparently the water used by Viktor in that line of research tended to change to vapor, ruining the fun.

Clem started from an observation of road building equipment that distributed liquid tar. He noticed the equipment self-running and took it from there, devising a motor. Since he came from tar, he used oil (similar in consistency) and so overcame the limit of water's boiling point. The oil seems to have run to about 200 or 300 degrees Centigrade in Clem's engine.

I see the two approaches as very similar, and any researcher into Clem would do well to find out about Schauberger's earlier failed experiments. It seems that Schauberger could not "jump over his own shadow", as a German saying goes - he could not conceive using any other liquid than his beloved water.


Some of you-related articles are on http://merlib.org/person/josef-hasslberger. How does that make you feel? Are there things about you and those articles on you / by you that you would like clarified?

I am happy to see that there is some interest in these things. Nothing in particular that I would like to change or add to at this time.


Are you aware of the Joe Cell, the orgone-based implosive-gas -producing water system for running cars with?

Yes aware, but have never worked with one or seen one in operation. The principle (that no direct connecting tube is even necessary) has mind boggling implications, but it reminds me of a thing I read somewhere in Viktor Schauberger's writings. That was an attempt to create a fuel out of water by a process involving vortex action. Apparently successful, but never implemented. Who would want a fuel that costs pennies when billions can be made selling "the real thing"...?


Recently we have encountered Faraday Flashlights, based on the discovery by Michael Faraday, that measurable energy can be produced by sliding a magnet inside a copper coil (enough to light up a LED). Where would you like to see these more mundane solutions go?

They should be promoted and widely distributed. Anything that stimulates us to think that there are different ways to approach a technical problem is part of a long-term solution.


Do you believe that the Buckminster Fuller Dymaxion House, and other realizations of Buckminster Fuller, regards synergy, and the Dymaxion Concepts, should be, and could be connected with Viktor Schauberger's implosion / energy-creation / soil fertility / levitation / velocity -systems, and that this connected with Nikola Tesla's Wardenclyffe wireless electricity/etc transfer could, at best, result in completely free living on Spaceship Earth?

Yes, I definitely think we should look at Buckminster Fuller's contributions. Like Schauberger and Tesla, his works are not nearly studied enough or well-known enough except in a circle of enthusiasts. Fuller's technologies have earth-changing implications, just like Schauberger's and Tesla's, and I think we have been purposely diverted off the path. We should change that, and a first step would be to make the materials of all three available for easy study.


If you were to try and explain what Moray accomplished, when connected with Viktor Schauberger, how would you start? I also see Moray connected with Nikola Tesla, and would like to ask the same questions in regards them?

I see Moray much closer to Tesla than to Schauberger. Moray figured out a way of tapping ambient energies to filter out useful electricity, something Tesla is also rumored to have done with the energy unit of his Pearce Arrow that had an electric drive motor.


Would you like to give us permission to re-print the articles on Viktor Schauberger of your choice, to Modern Energy Research Library, please? What would you like to see MERLib accomplish, and what are the areas of interest in regards implosion and magnetism that we are not currently satisfactorily covering? Where would you like to see us go?

You have my permission to re-print any articles written by me. That includes emails and discussions, unless specifically indicated.

I think that to really function as a Modern Energy Research Library, you should provide easy access to all the original writings of Viktor Schauberger (and Bucky Fuller and Nikola Tesla), but more importantly, you should attract people who are willing to use the access you provide and take the work of these geniuses further, while sharing what they are doing.

A wiki with separate space for each one of them and with possibility of amalgamating ideas about their technological approaches and how to apply them today, could be quite helpful in this. If you do not have access to wiki technology or don't have the space to put one up, there is always peswiki, put up by Sterling Allan, which is open to any such input.

I believe that real, everyday applications, even if small, are far above any speculations in importance of actually getting these technologies revived or rather developed to where we can use them.


Would you also allow us to copy your Schauberger-related blog postings verbatim into MERLib, please, with full credits to you?

No problem


On your website you talk about the corkscrew-like turbine of Schauberger's.
"The second innovation proposed by Schauberger is a revolutionary design of the turbine, obtaining rotation at very high speeds and at the same time avoiding the usual difficulties of cavitation found in normal high speed turbine designs. In fact Schauberger's turbine wheel is of conical shape, with 'ribs' spiralling down the surface of the cone in a corkscrew pattern, and it is located in the center of the jet of water. The corkscrew turbine wheel parts the flow of water, takes up the water's dynamic energy and lets the flow continue without major disruption. Turbines of current design 'hack' the water into thousands of destructive counter flows and cross vortices, thus wasting much of the available energy and causing the common problem of cavitation, a super fast corrosion and destruction of turbine blade material."

What do you propose as the simplest/easiest method of creating this turbine wheel with?

Schauberger always paid much attention to the materials he used. He said that the material was of the utmost importance, that a device could function with the right kind of material, and have no way to work if you used something else to build it.

I would say that some copper alloy like bronze, cast and then polished, would be a good material to start out with. Apparently some materials give water more energy, while others drain it...


Are there any other Schauberger-d-i-y-experiments that one could create at home, any other than the vortex-bottle (two bottles with corks glued together), for better visualization + inspiration in creating vortexes and/or purifying water?

I think we have to get the originals of Schauberger's writings to be available, and many ideas will just automatically jump into view. It has to be a co-operative effort where people can contribute, even if they only have something faintly similar.


Prof. Finzi's turbine. Could you describe this turbine in brief detail, and how it relates to the suction turbine and trout turbine of Viktor Schauberger?

I must admit that there is not much known about that turbine, except that it seems to have had a tangential water inlet promoting a vortex in the turbine housing, which was then optimally utilized by a Kaplan turbine which has blades that are adjustable in pitch and can be made to adjust to and utilize a turning (vortex-type) flow more efficiently.


What do you believe is the key realization that you, Mr. Hasslberger, have added to the information on Viktor Schauberger?

I am not sure I did add anything, other than keep the idea alive at a time where it needed a bit of push.


How do you propose a beginner should proceed in finding further information and sources on Schauberger?

As I said above, we must strive to make all the information that is there available on the web, and to go as much as possible to the original documents, if needed with translations. Anyone wishing to contribute should first and foremost "get their hands dirty" on such a project of scouting out original documents and making them available to others.

MerLib would be as good a place as any to start, but we must strive to build a complete library.


more coming.

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Here is a recent post on a Schauberger list that is a confirmation of what I am feeling intuitively - that we are not getting the whole straight dough on what Viktor Schauberger really said:

From: "Martin Schröder"
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006
Subject: RE: SV: [viktorschaubergergroup] Good news !!


Hello,
what you call the wavy plates are in german Maeanderscheiben or Doppelwellenmembran. I have these copper plates here at home, because I bought them in Austria from Firma Hoefler in Seitenstetten.

They have 3 types of these wavy plates. They ALL are constructed by Viktor
Schauberger himself, because they found the forms [from] him. My plates are 29cm in diameter, they are from the Klimator, I think.

In this forum http://schauberger.tk/portal/ I opened some threads with a few drawings of them. Soon I will post some pictures of my plates. So, if you really want to have these Copper-Plates: there is no problem ... just call Firma Hoefler.

What you write about the golden cut is for me Erbsenzaehlerei, oder Duennbrettbohrerei... ;o)

Its better to ask, what happens inside the Maeanderscheiben.

The vortex is not the important thing, the reduction of the bipolar substances is the main thing, that Schauberger wants.

I don't want to say that it is wrong to read Callum Coats books, but what I read in the original writings of Schauberger is sometimes very different.

You look too much at these vortexes or proportions ... The Spiralraumkurvenbewegung is NOT a simple vortex!!!

Sorry for my bad english.

Greets
Martin

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What did Victor mean when he said we have to think from the octave above?

I believe what he meant when he said higher octave, or octave above is that we must not be stuck in the purely physical. We must think in terms of energy processes that are not immediately visible but are present in great abundance in nature.

Only when we can imagine or better yet perceive those energies, can we model a proper technology.

Third International Conference on Natural Energies (IWONE 2007)
August 3rd - 5th, 2007 in Höör (outside Malmö), Sweden.

IWONE is a platform for individuals and groups concerned with (alternative) phenomena grouped together under the more general theme “Natural Energies”. This theme covers areas such as non-traditional ways to affect water quality, plants, weather and eco-systems, as well as non-traditional alternative energy sources. Historically we have had a focus on ideas related to the Austrian naturalist Viktor Schauberger.

IWONE 2007 will focus on:

Alternative water treatment
Alternative water flow
Indirect influences on plants and soil

(We'll encourage papers on topics within these areas, but will of course accept any interesting paper within the broader range mentioned above.)

More information here.

A Schauberger water turbine implemented in Austria and generating 50000 KWH a year with a diameter of only 5.5m.

http://www.zotloeterer.com/unser_unternehmen/wasserwirbeltechnik/wasserwirbelkraftwerk.php

Thanks GJ,

there is also a report about this turbine in Austria on this site at

http://blog.hasslberger.com/2007/06/water_vortex_drives_power_plan.html

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Vicktor's Acoustic Vortex Pipe water pump ME 109. Reversed, it becomes an engine using implosion of water droplets in an emulsion of oil and water. Erosion of turbine walls limited by the oil component of the emulsion. Ideal for a Carnot/Rankin turbine application. It is not zero-point but better than almost anything available. Why else confiscate Vicktor's work?
A steam turbine from implosion heat in a closed system. See Clem's Engine. Not Sonocracking of Crisco but water/Crisco emulsion.
Very nice application, don't you think?


I have heard neither of an acoustic pipe nor of an emulsion of oil and water being used by Schauberger.

Clem's engine used vegetable oil - not water and not an emulsion.

Got any references for what you are saying, Michael?

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Michael Himes replies by email:

Sono Fusion powered the Clem Engine. A water/oil (Crisco) emulsion and a fluid dynamic called cavitation implosion. The device has been documented, in principal, in the Keeley Net article. Dr. Alfred Evert and David Matos of Thermo Energetics have detailed information derived from e-mails with me. However, the matter of cavitation never was resolved between David Matos and myself.

The oil component in the emulsion limits the destructive erosion of the runner channel walls by absorption of implosion acoustic shock and plasma temperatures. The radiator in the Clem engine cooled the emulsion components and recombined them at a temperature below boiling point of water and the turbulent return cycle recreated the emulsion for the next cycle.

Noted is the fact a "Start Up Heat Source" is required and radiation shielding for neutrons and confinement of the Tritium in the return cycle is of great importance. Unfortunately Richard Clem neglected to do the later and over time may have suffered fatal consequences of radiation.

I have made comments on your blog at least once.

One additional note: If the hydraulic nature of the working fluid is to have maximum effect a second stage hydraulic turbine at the base of the runner down stream of the reaction nozzles would make more efficient use of the forces (5-10% more...). 90-95% efficiency may be realized if the later is incorporated.

Patents? Let them fight over it and thus improve upon an already good concept.

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Clem used recycled Crisco from a Bar he frequented. That oil contained small amounts of salt from cooking. In the resevoir of cooking oil in his car there was an air space that allowed condensed air to form condensation (water). So while it is true Clem used only oil, salt and condensation provided the elements of hydrogen fusion from cavitation implosion in the Clem Engine. Source: The Houston Chronicle, which only mentioned Cavitation Implosion as a driving energy. No one considered salt in the recycled oil nor condensation of water in the air space in the car's resevoir.
I recommend research why negatively charged water micelles shells prevent coalecence in the emulsion of oil and water thus providing "controlled" small implosions that do not erode the runner walls.
This Fusion Engine concept is so unique and counter intuitive, it is unlikely that any but a few can comprehend it's dynamics.

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Update on the Clem Engine cavitation implosion device. Sea water contains 481 mg/L Sodium Tetraborate and 100 grams/L of sodium Chloride. In asphalt boron and salt are both present and the boron limts neutron radiation and enhances plasma heat in hydrogen fusion with a boron proton.
The site of implosion in the Clem Engine is in the reaction flow from the nozzles and not in the helical channels. Had Clem stayed with asphalt with boron and salt, soluables of asphalt, neutron radiation would have been limitd. I recommend study of Zwitterionic (double shell) water micelles during vapor phase implosion. The results are quite remarkable. See: ICCF12 Dr. Koldamasov electrostatic implosion fusion but use added aqueous Boric Acid and Table Salt instead of just machine oil.

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An improved Chemical Catalyst for Clem Engine working solutions is Sodium Borohydried (NaBH4)in vegetable oil. Quantum Ring Dynamics and neutron absorption provide the mechanism for excess heat from fusion of 208 cal/mol over that of 103 cal/mol of vegetable oil alone in dissociation (cat cracking).
The Clem Engine was a combined cycle fusion engine.

"What did Victor mean when he said we have to think from the octave above?"

would not that be linked to Walter Russell's Periodic Chart of The Elements?

http://www.meta-synthesis.com/webbook/35_pt/pt_database.php?PT_id=147

Although Walter Russell divided his table of chemical elements into "octaves", I believe that in the case of Viktor Schauberger, the meaning of "think from the octave above" is rather one of "thinking from a higher perspective", i.e. letting the world of spirit be part of our considerations.